Following on from the 'Charging' threads I've read about joint debtors I have a few questions of my own and would appreciate any advice.

I have a charge of appx £11'500 on my property. The claimant's always sent me court documents by recorded/signed for delivery but in this instance I received nothing until the court sent me a final notice which stated 'upon the non-attendance of the defendant and upon reading the letter from the claimant'. My mailbox is outside the house and often full of rubbish which I recycle. I've checked with the royal mail who say they don't keep records of recorded or non delivery of mail. I'm not overly concerned about the charge itself but am unhappy about the accruing interest. Mail may or may not have been sent to me by the claimant or I've missed the red delivery note if one was left. My questions are these:

1. Can I make a payment to reduce the debt to just under £10k and will this stop further interest accruing.

2. Could I take issue with the court about not being informed about the proceedings and have the interest set back to zero? Could this be done in say 10 years time? Shall I let the claimant know that I never received a notice of hearing or interim order?

3. What happens if the claimant dies before me?

4. Is there any way to avoid paying this debt? I have been fleeced to quite a large extent with this but you live and learn as they say. The claimant even removed the acknowledgement form from the initial claim form.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. Mike.

Re: Property charging order queries.

mike'y;379065 Can I make a payment to reduce the debt to just under £10k and will this stop further interest accruing .

Can you explain why you think the interest would stop accruing if the outstanding balance reduces below £10k. Normally interest is charged on a CCJ if the order says it can be charged. Have you got your original CCJ to see what it says?

Re: Property charging order queries.

mike'y;379065 What happens if the claimant dies before me?.

What exactly have you got in mind for them :wtf

Re: Property charging order queries.

mike'y;379065 Could I take issue with the court about not being informed about the proceedings and have the interest set back to zero? Could this be done in say 10 years time? Shall I let the claimant know that I never received a notice of hearing or interim order?.

I'm not qualified to answer that but the existence or non-existence of a CO probably doesn't effect the debt owed on the CCJ. The CO is simply security for the established debt against your asset so that the claimant can collect the money due to them in the event of you selling your property. The CO isn't the reason interest is being added. Non payment of the debt (CCJ) is the reason the interest is being added. Are you making any payments towards this debt at the moment?

When you say you weren't informed about the proceedings, do you mean the final charging order hearing or the original hearing which resulted in a CCJ? I'm assuming you mean the CO hearing. If you want to revisit that hearing you would have to convince the court that a CO wouldn't have been given first time around even if you had been there. Was you CCJ a forthwith order or an instalment order?

Finally, what date did you get this CCJ and the subsequent CO? If you have got any legal manoeuvres to make it would be unwise to leave them 10 years because you would be out of time for a set-aside etc. The court expects you to speak up as soon as you feel something is wrong.

Re: Property charging order queries.

planB;379654Can you explain why you think the interest would stop accruing if the outstanding balance reduces below £10k. Normally interest is charged on a CCJ if the order says it can be charged. Have you got your original CCJ to see what it says?

I thought I’d read on the forum that interest didn’t apply to CO debts below £10k so in effect as time passes the creditor gets less bang for his buck. Maybe I misunderstood this but I’d like to clarify it. 8% is a heck of a lot of interest if that’s the going rate.

planB;379655What exactly have you got in mind for them :wtf

Lol, nothing but sooner or later one of us will be dead and I’d like it to be him J it could be worth the wait. Would his beneficiaries take over the charge? Or, would it cease to apply?

planB;379657 Non payment of the debt (CCJ) is the reason the interest is being added. Are you making any payments towards this debt at the moment?

No

planB;379657When you say you weren't informed about the proceedings, do you mean the final charging order hearing or the original hearing which resulted in a CCJ?

I wasn’t informed of the interim CO hearing ( I think that’s normal) or the final CO hearing.

planB;379657I'm assuming you mean the CO hearing. If you want to revisit that hearing you would have to convince the court that a CO wouldn't have been given first time around even if you had been there. Was you CCJ a forthwith order or an instalment order?

‘It says ‘payable on or before ** August 2012’. Presumably forthwith.

planB;379657Finally, what date did you get this CCJ and the subsequent CO? If you have got any legal manoeuvres to make it would be unwise to leave them 10 years because you would be out of time for a set-aside etc. The court expects you to speak up as soon as you feel something is wrong.

I doubt that I could have it set aside unless there was foul play and having a CO is my least painful option at the moment. I had read though that I should have been informed of the proceedings and that if I went back to court to complain that there had been irregularities then the interest would be returned to the amount owed at the original CO hearing. IProbably a non starter in reality. Thankyou for your comments though.

Re: Property charging order queries.

Can you try and use the quote option - easier to read.

I will edit and quote your previous post to show you how to do it.....

See below.....

planB;379654Can you explain why you think the interest would stop accruing if the outstanding balance reduces below £10k. Normally interest is charged on a CCJ if the order says it can be charged. Have you got your original CCJ to see what it says?

I thought I’d read on the forum that interest didn’t apply to CO debts below £10k so in effect as time passes the creditor gets less bang for his buck. Maybe I misunderstood this but I’d like to clarify it. 8% is a heck of a lot of interest if that’s the going rate.

planB;379655What exactly have you got in mind for them :wtf

Lol, nothing but sooner or later one of us will be dead and I’d like it to be him J it could be worth the wait. Would his beneficiaries take over the charge? Or, would it cease to apply?

planB;379657 Non payment of the debt (CCJ) is the reason the interest is being added. Are you making any payments towards this debt at the moment?

No

planB;379657When you say you weren't informed about the proceedings, do you mean the final charging order hearing or the original hearing which resulted in a CCJ?

I wasn’t informed of the interim CO hearing ( I think that’s normal) or the final CO hearing.

planB;379657I'm assuming you mean the CO hearing. If you want to revisit that hearing you would have to convince the court that a CO wouldn't have been given first time around even if you had been there. Was you CCJ a forthwith order or an instalment order?

‘It says ‘payable on or before ** August 2012’. Presumably forthwith.

planB;379657Finally, what date did you get this CCJ and the subsequent CO? If you have got any legal manoeuvres to make it would be unwise to leave them 10 years because you would be out of time for a set-aside etc. The court expects you to speak up as soon as you feel something is wrong.

I doubt that I could have it set aside unless there was foul play and having a CO is my least painful option at the moment. I had read though that I should have been informed of the proceedings and that if I went back to court to complain that there had been irregularities then the interest would be returned to the amount owed at the original CO hearing. IProbably a non starter in reality. Thankyou for your comments though.

Re: Property charging order queries.

Thanks Niddy, I was especially challenged when I made the reply to planB :)

Re: Property charging order queries.

mike'y;379976 I was especially challenged when I made the reply to planB

I find it difficult too. Multi-tasking is not my strength. This is why I often reply to long posts with a series of little posts dealing with each separate issue raised in its own right.

So this is a fairly recent CCJ but you haven't said what it's for. Was it a debt or something else?

There may still be the option to negotiate a Full & Final settlement at a reduced sum if you have the funds. The Claimant may seize the opportunity to grab any money going now in preference to waiting ten or even twenty years get there hands on the whole amount.

Re: Property charging order queries.

This was a very expensive car engine built for a customer who believed it to have a incorrectly adjusted valvetrain. We spoke about the possibility of returning it to me to make adjustments. The customer didn't want to return it and made his own adjustments which wrote the engine off. He has always had a 'hands on approach' to his engines. The crux of the matter at court was whether I'd advised him to make his own adjustments. I had said some adjustments could be carried out safely but no way did I tell him to do the work. He took it upon himself to meddle with the engine. Anyway, it's in the past now and I've learnt a valuable lesson.

A lot of the debt is interest, court fees etc. I wonder what would be a reasonable settlement figure, £7-8k perhaps. Failing that he may have to wait 30 years. I like my house and if I'm here in my old age I'll convert it to flats and rent one out. :)

Re: Property charging order queries.

mike'y;380142This was a very expensive car engine built for a customer who believed it to have a incorrectly adjusted valvetrain. We spoke about the possibility of returning it to me to make adjustments. The customer didn't want to return it and made his own adjustments which wrote the engine off.

So who's got or owns the car now? Was it sold as scrappage after the engine failure even though the rest of the vehicle was probably drivable? If so who got the money for that? Did the claim represent a total loss of the car or just a refund for the engine?

Re: Property charging order queries.

It was just for the engine. He paid me to build another engine from parts which he purchased and then, finally after all of that blamed me for the initial failure. As far as I know he still has the car. I don't think I should have lost the court case which was probably 50/50. The court allowed an expert witness who he paid for and who wasn't very expert either. What irritated me was that they had lunch together during the trial break and the witness wasn't very independent either but try and explain that to the judge!

Re: Property charging order queries.

mike'y;380189 He paid me to build another engine from parts which he purchased . . . .

. . . . The court allowed an expert witness who he paid for and who wasn't very expert either. What irritated me was that they had lunch together during the trial break and the witness wasn't very independent

Well the expert witness would have been his expert witness who you'd expect to support his case and not be independent or even objective. Having lunch together wasn't a crime.

Did you not get an expert witness to support your side of the coin?

If he paid you to build another engine that suggests he hadn't lost faith in you. I do hope you made a profit on that job :happy

From everything you've said this case should never have gone to trial and could have been settled by mediation. That way there would have been no CCJ, no charging order and no 8% interest. Isn't hindsight annoying :yeayea

Re: Property charging order queries.

The expert witness was chosen from a list of 3. After the lunch break the expert had revised his opinions more in line with the claimants thoughts. It was clearly obvious to me but the judge wouldn't have known this was happening.
I couldn't afford an expert or a solicitor. Lol, hindsights very annoying but onwards and upwards as they say :)

Re: Property charging order queries.

We can still look at all the other issues you've raised about interest being charged and so on. Dig out the CCJ and see what it says about that.

If it makes you feel any better I've just copped an £11k court order for something I should have settled at the outset so I share your pain. Niddy made me feel better when he said "it's only money" when he found me in meltdown. He's right of course

Re: Property charging order queries.

Well, all I can say is I hope we can make it less savory for the claimant/s :) I'd hate it for a claimant to have a pain free victory lol! My claimant battled on for years. I couldn't believe the amount of work and effort he put into his case. Files and files of papers all indexed and colour coded. I think he nearly had a breakdown. I'm hoping he has a heart attack, lol. I'll post him some rashers of bacon with some juicy lard :D

Niddy is right. Debts won't kill you. Hanging onto things is more likely to kill you. It's all about adjusting to suit your circumstances and accepting things as they are.

Re: Property charging order queries.

mike'y;380198 Niddy is right. Debts won't kill you. Hanging onto things is more likely to kill you. It's all about adjusting to suit your circumstances and accepting things as they are.

Amen to all that !

I'm into yoga to sort the mind body soul thing but I'm not sure you boys are ready for that approach yet

Re: Property charging order queries.

I practice yoga to and have been training at tai chi chuan for about 15 years.:) Sometimes a bit of yin can be a good thing. It's nice to find the right balance in life and worrying about debts is destructive.

Re: Property charging order queries.

PlanB;380195We can still look at all the other issues you've raised about interest being charged and so on. Dig out the CCJ and see what it says about that.

I

Thanks.

It just says judgement in favour of the claimant plus interest, costs and expenses payable on or before ** august 2012. I believe it's a forthwith order. It doesn't stipulate the rate of interest but I assume that's 8%?

I'm still trying to figure out whether to try and settle this or let it ride for a few years. Hmm.

Re: Property charging order queries.

Can I resurrect this thread?

I've heard nothing from the creditor and nothing relating to the charge. I'd half expected to be under pressure to sell the house. Could there be a reason why a CT wouldn't enforce the CO?

I do have an offer lined up for the creditor but wonder why he's not been proactive. Thanks.

Re: Property charging order queries.

mike'y;585600Can I resurrect this thread?

Yes you may :happy


I've looked back and can see in post # 5 that you said you weren't aware of the application for a Final Charging Order (or the Hearing date I presume). That could open the door to get the CO set aside depending on the reason why you never received it.

However if you've not paid a penny since the CCJ in 2012 you'd have difficulty persuading the court that if the CO were to be set aside the Claimant wouldn't be successful in getting a new CO because you've not paid them, especially since you say it was a 'forthwith' Order. The court may decide it's a waste of time and money to set aside an Order which can be made anew only weeks later.

mike'y;379667 I wasn't informed of the interim CO hearing ( I think that’s normal) or the final CO hearing.

‘It says ‘payable on or before ** August 2012’. Presumably forthwith.

Having a CO doesn't prevent a Claimant from seeking other methods of enforcement as well, such as an Attachment of Earnings (not possible if you're self-employed).

So maybe you should keep your head down or make them an offer if you prefer. They're unlikely to have forgotten about it but once you bring it to their attention (with an offer) they may decide to play hardball especially if they suspect you may have a motive for settling (such as selling the property).

I agree that 8% interest is monstrous but if your property is increasing in value over the years then it's possible that your home is 'earning' you more then you are being charged in interest on the CCJ (if it's not a huge amount).

I'm just trying to sweeten the bitter pill.

Di